Ep 14 Decarbonization through biogas and biomethane with Kunal Shah

SEAP 14

Intro: Hi, welcome to a sustainable energy Asia port cust. And I haven't been. Today we're receiving kenosha. Asia managing director at the nausea. Uh, integrated solution provider for organic waste management and resource recovery.

Bowel guys became a very important to peak with many big scare acquisition, 2020 to 2023. So Chaz BP's acquisition of. Akia next Sierra 1 billion. Acquisition Macquarie acquisition of Beerwah. Bio gas division. Valerie energy acquisition of BC. It was great to have The subject who is very passionated about so guys in diameter. As a way to mitigate climate change, hinted use a production process of biogas by and meetings through. I know a big Dashon.

Yes, I believe we're supporting policy and incentives. Biogas and bowel myth and could be the low hanging fruit for ASEAN region in accelerating energy transition through development of additive, renewable energy. As always we would appreciate if you could take the time to rate and comment on the show it helps listeners to find us thanks and only with the show

Yiou: hi Kunal. Welcome on the show. Could you tell us something about yourself and, you came to work in the waste and, biogas

Kunal: I am Kunal chief Growth Officer of Anergia and also the managing director Asia. I'm a chemical engineer by background with about 14 years experience in the water Waste slash biogas industry. I have built different kinds of water infrastructure as well as now waste and biogas plants with a focus on Asia.

 So the part in India I grew, is a desert where there is very less water. So water is a sector which always excited me. And when we use water human beings or industries, we all generate wastewater. That wastewater causes environmental pollution and it's a nuisance value. And then one part of the wastewater is the sludge, which is the solid part of the wastewater. Now this sludge has become landfill Landfill, which causes methane emissions and is a problem what we have done in the past and we do now, is to convert that slud.

So that's how I came into the water industry. And I was working for, one of the largest listed, water company in India called Vik. And then I joined gia, which is a public listed company in Canada I always saw every developing world has a mountain next to the city and it's usually the garbage mountain. That kind of was always there with me, that the waste industry is the lowest hanging fruit to contributing, to generation of renewable. Or creating biogas and biothane as a fuel and resource recovery. So that, basically nothing goes wasted in the land and everything is recycled back.

So imagine a world where everything goes recycled back and you will never have anymore, garbage mounted mountains. And that's how I ended up at energy and kind of loving.

audioBenjamin(Jie)Pan21077225083: And as you were saying, you were chief Growth Officer at Anaergia can you give us a brief introduction of. About Anaergia your goals as an institution and some numbers about the company.

Kunal: Sure, happy to do that. Energy, as I said, we are listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange. Currently one of the world's largest listed organic waste technology platform. means that we convert under one company any kind of organic waste on planet Earth, whether it's, wastewater slu municipal solid waste, agricultural waste. And industrial organic waste made from food and beverage. So we are a platform which can convert all these different kinds of waste and repurpose them using proprietary technologies and vertically and horizontally integrated solutions into either a renewable energy molecule or a renewable gas molecule, clean fertilizer, recyclables and clean water. We have built Over 1700 anaerobic digestion facilities, producing about 5 million mm b two per year of green gas. which is Equivalent of powering 90,000 homes in Europe.

We are. Managing 8 million tons a year of waste. which is Two to 2.5 times the waste we generate here in Singapore . So as a company across our facilities, we manage about 135,250 megawatts of renewable energy generated, and all that done through, using about 240 patent.

Yiou: That's great. Actually, you little bit about Han Molecule. let's take a look into that. Since we all know Han is one of them, greenhouse gas and contribute to climate change, particularly when released, into government sphere in large quantities. So, can you tell us how this process is taking place and, in the end contribute to the climate change?

Kunal: Absolutely. And thank you for that very good question. methane emissions has been a bit underlooked compared to carbon diox. Over a 20 year period It is 80 times, more important, which means it has 80 times more, Of a carbon dioxide palm for pound, so that's one fact. Second fact, the United Nations says put forward, degree Celsius out of the 1.1 degree Celsius of the warming is due to reasons of methane So that's fact number two. Fact number three 30 to 40% of the global warming today is because of methane emissions, from oil and gas industry, waste, agricultural sector, livestock, and so on and so forth Methane's high potency as I explained, is a problem, but I also felt, there is a silver lining.

And the silver lining is that it dissipates in the atmosphere after about a decade, whereas carbon lasts in the atmosphere for centuries. It means that efforts to reduce methane emissions offer the fastest route to slowing global warming.

Ben: That's the excellent introduction. And I guess this leads us to subject of today, which is really biogas and biomethane. So, when we speak about biogas and biomethane, could you first start by defining them and why its referred as carbon negative fuel

then telling us, Why is it so important to reduce green gas houses emissions?

Kunal: Happy to. Now biogas is called, a gas made from biogenic materials. So just imagine a rotten apple or a rotten banana, which is thrown away. You can now under anaerobic conditions in a technology called anaerobic digester convert that into biogas. This is a gas which, similar to natural gas, is comprised of methane, carbon dioxide, some hydrogen sulfide and water.

so that's biogas. You can convert that biogas molecule into a biomethane molecule. Now, what is Biothane? Biogas is about 40 to 50, 55% methane remaining carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and H two s. Using advanced technology, we can strip off the CO2 and convert this biogas from 50% methane to 90 plus percent methane. You can even go to 99% purity of methane, which is actually natural gas. That's why it's called renewable natural gas. So biomethane is gas produced from biogenic material.

Now carbon dioxide is produced when biomethane is combusted, when we burn biomethane, it does not increase the amount of CO2 present in the atmosphere, but it makes it circulate in short, current cycles. Any time when biomethane replaces fossil fuel, cO2 emissions are prevented. You slow climate change in two ways. Methane reduction and displacement of fossil fuel.

Now why carbon Biogas is being generated from let's say animal waste or menu, it was going to generate X amount of G emissions. You avoid that and now you replace fossil gas, so you kind of take the bar further away and you make a carbon negative. And the negative carbon fuel depends on the quality of the waste and the methane gas emissions possibility.

Yiou: That's very promising hearing a description of this and so now let's talk about numbers. How do you estimate the global market of, today and what's the potential market size?

Kunal: If I were to quote some numbers from International Energy Agency. Let's take some numbers of established markets. Europe decided that 6% of his gas has to be green gas by 2030.

This was before the Russia, Ukraine War that meant close to 30 to 40 billion Euro investments. And Europe has now set a target up the war of 35 million cubic meters of biomethane which is almost 14 times more than all the plants have been built in the last 50 years. So the speed, the financing requirement have to be all matching. So it's a big, big, big industry. The US needs 15,000 digesters facilities. There are currently only, 200, 300 running at a scale. Very small kind of facilities, discrete, decentralized and energy use in Asia, our gas consumption is very high. The market size is billions of dollars of gas as a fuel. Now how to make that gas also cleaner gas I think many Southeast Asian nations, for that matter, many developing nations are still using diesel for electricity, diesel for the trucks the cars and the buses. Just imagine if these diesel engines were be converted into C N G, which is going to be powered from the waste.

It's called bio CNG new Delhi in India has been running a C N G network since 30 years. Many cities in China Thailand have been running C N G buses for decades. This C N G was the first there, but this is natural gas. Fossil gas CNG (compressed natural gas), we have been converting. Waste into bio CNG. So just the energy transition it's not just about electricity and energy, it's also about the fuel. And so much emissions happen from vehicles, fuel, industry, the cement industry, and all those people need fuel, which is heat, which is gas, and we can convert waste into that.

Ben: That's very interesting.

You mentioned all the waste produced, city Municipal waste So my understanding is we can use waste to generate electricity. And could you tell us what are the potentials here in the region in Southeast Asia for using, municipal waste to generate renewable fuels?

Kunal: you are touching a topic which is very close to my heart and I've feel so passionate. I can talk for hours on that. But let's limit it to two, three minutes. Municipal waste, is proportional to the human population. ASEAN Southeast Asia China and India are almost like, 60, 70% of the world's population.

So we can generate 60% of the world's waste stream, maybe a bit lower because we have our own consumption habits. Every city in Asia. Mountain. I mean the waste mountain next to New Delhi was even called the Mount rest of garbage. You're talking about mountains which are as high as 40, 50 story building.

decades, people , have been throwing. One single city of Jakarta generates about 15,000 tons a day of waste. This waste is being landfill. Our waste is full of organic. We can use proven technology to extract organic waste from mixed waste. It's called the OR organic extrusion technology We don't need source segregation. We can segregate at the landfill. Now you got that organic waste from this garbage. This organic waste will then clean and put it into an anaerobic digestion to generate biogas.

the problem is On one hand we try to put up solar panels over solar panels. We need that because if the scale has reached, the cost is good. , but at the same time, the same cities which have solar panels, bond plant filling waste. Emitting methane emissions.

 No, it is not solving the problem. another potential is Biogas converted into electricity is base load. As solar power, you can only generate electricity 1400 hours in a year. In a biogas plant, you generate renewable energy 8,400 hours in a year. So literally across the year. One megawatt of biogas plant is equivalent to like setting up 15 to 20, megawatt at a decent efficiency of solar. That's why I was calling it a low hanging fruit

that's true. I believe asian countries have a great potential in terms increase the use of Biogas As renewable energy source

Yiou: According to the IEA a's projection, countries in Asia will lead the growth in the common decades in terms of direct biogas use. This is a very good sign for low carbon emission and to provide alternative methods apart from solars or wind. Could you give an overview of the state of the development of a biogas in the global context and maybe, just a brief introduction of some, inspirational experience that the other countries have used.

Kunal: Definitely happy to. 20 years ago, Germany came out with this feeding tariff for solar when solar was expensive, that high feeding tariff that was a catalyst to grow the industry. And you see, where the solar power has come down to in terms of competitive. Similarly biogas was prevalent in. Civilization thousands of years ago but small scale. What German government did was to kind of bring it mainstream in a bigger scale.

And Germany right now has about 8,000 biogas running. Just take that as an example of India. Has less than 200. So that's an example that the developing nations have built a lot of plants. I think personally, the developed world, America, Europe has done it very well. They have regulations which are driving, just take an example. California has a regulation. Landfills are okay, but no organic waste should go to the landfill because organic waste causes methane emissions. So by 2030, the government have given targets to the waste companies, And provide Better tariff for the biothane. to Diverting the organic waste from the landfills. So the markets really went up in the last five years for biomethane. That was one of the reasons, regulations and incentives for green gas.

Well, there was another thing after the Russia, Ukraine war, Europe started further pushing the incentives on carbon dioxide emissions and on green gas. So, They can have their own local gas to reduce dependency on external and overseas gas.

People say that biogas plants are generally small, $10 20 million asset value. think our biggest biogas plant, which is North America's largest biogas facility, is in the next to city of Los Angeles.

It's a single plant about 200 million US dollars. Two years ago, we started developing a project in Denmark, which we recently sold. generate about. 1.4 million mmbtu per year . That's a lot of quantity when it comes to bio gas plants. So scale of these plants has been growing, which is what investors like, technology risk has gone down. And last but not the least is off pick. Who's going to buy this green gas? I can tell you right now as there is a rush or the green energy molecule by industries. Some of the leading names, they all want green guests. They're willing to give a premium. So you see from a risk perspective, if the technology's proven, feedstock , is available, offtake are available, you have to just connect the dots.

Ben: I, I can definitely see the appeal, in the develop word. , , In comparison, what is a state of the incentive in the region, because I mean, that's will have a lot to do with, the ability you will have to develop this sector in the region.

Kunal: Unfortunately, Benjamin, most of the countries we are surrounded by do not have, biogas or a biothane incentive yet, except a few.

India has a national policy on Biothane, it's called the Satta Scheme, whereby The national oil companies of India are willing to buy green gas at the production factory. It's one of the best schemes we have seen in the region. Australia is thinking of introducing renewable gas certificates, which will be over and above the fossil fuel value.

Apart from that, most of the other places, the government incentive for biogas are related to electricity, not biomethan.

Yeah, so Biothane is then left to being offtake to Fortune 500. So there is no risk or the large oil and gas companies like Shell, BP Total, who are all winning for quite some time to buy these green gas and reduce their overall carbon footprint.

Yiou: You mentioned green energy molecule before. It would be interesting to compare it with the other renewable gases, for example, green hydrogen.

Kunal: I think there is a lot of tall discussions, projects announced on green hydrogen. One of the bigger things which hydrogen is pushing forward is that it can be generated at a single location or any location in the world where there is cheap energy and some water available. So that that can be produced in a large quantity. People are looking at Australia, some other parts of the world. I would like that really to fly. But just look at Where we are. To me the whole complexity of not just producing storing liquefying, transporting. when you transport it to another country and further treat it, transporting it as liquid ammonia. Or as a career. I think all that is fantastic. I think it boils down currently to the economics. Your question was comparing both. both have a space, but I think the reason we are working so, actively in the biotin space is because it is available. It can be quickly using proven technologies, not something 20 25, 20 40. It is a drop in fuel. Same natural gas pipelines, same ships, which transport LNG can transport, bio energy, it can be generated in large quantities and costs are coming down. And the effects of this is multiple, because you now not just reduce. Emissions from waste, but you are now repurposing to carbon negative fuel and you can generate it in every country in the world because there is waste in every country in the.

Ben: That's true. There's a lot of efficiency and cost issues with hydrogen but it's also true that, there's a lot of capital waiting for project to be invested in. But we still have, years before the disease materials, cuz most of the project are really early state at the.

You also mentioned right now with war in Ukraine, price of natural gas has really increased and making biogas and biomethane cost-competitive to importing LNG for examples.

Could you give us a sense of what is a cost per mmb t U of biogas or biotin today, and what is your view on where these costs can go in the future?

Kunal: It's a very common question, it's a tough one because as you know, biogas production cost depends on the processing cost of the waste.

If you're making this biomethane from, garbage or you're making it from palm oil waste water, or you're making it from animal waste. So the cost of production is different in all the cases.

 What I would say is that at least for Europe, it was so happy to see that the cost of biomethane was actually cheaper than the cost of fossil gas because the fossil gas went out in many other countries, natural gas is subsidized. So if you remove that subsidy, I think we can match prices of higher methane.

 Right now, we are looking at a range between $18 to $35 per MBT for green gas. Some of the developed world can even go to 50 in an M B T, but I think talking about Asia that's number you need 18 to 30 in order to make, a viable business case.

but again, This can change. This can go higher. Lower depending on the cost. Also depending on the cost of construction, Dubai Gas, which differentiates from different countries. Some countries the cost of construction is higher and some is lower.

Yiou: Now that we will cover the costs, like to delve into the use case of biogas. Actually, here in Singapore, we were seeing a flagship, project tuas Nexus, in the area of use water and solid waste treatment. Could you talk about this integrated waste management facility project how, aerobic digestion is used on this project and, the role of Anaergia in this project.

Kunal: Fantastic. I'm always excited to speak about this project because this project is the world's largest integrated waste. Management facility. Let me break it down. This is going to be, a first of its kind facility in the world at such a scale. I'm talking about billion facility where city waste, waste, water, treatment plant of the city, food waste will all be co-located and the synergies between them will be leveraged the waste will come in, they will generate renewable energy. Waste water will be treated to generate recycled water, the sludge of the waste water together with the food waste treated, which energy. As a company, we are the technology solutions provider for. Will be the food waste will be treated, food waste and waste water. sludge will be co digested in the digester and the gas being generated will then be fed to the steam turbine and in the waste energy plant to enhance the efficiency. it's like a nexus. That's how they call it a nexus. This facility I think, can be replicated across the world. Every city in the world has waste, food waste, and waste water.

 If you bring it all together, you can explore and leverage the synergies. And we are very proud to be associated. It's also a very interesting facility where it can, in my view, only happen in Singapore, where two different government agencies came together as real brothers and sisters at such a large scale.

So it's really, not just a technology marvel, but a very well thought of project and I congratulate all the stakeholders from consultants to technology providers to EP C contractors. we are very proud to be part of this in supplying the entire full waste, SE technology solutions and creating a clean bio pulp slurry, which will then be co-ed with sew slash with PB and nea.

Ben: That's really, fascinating for it. We can really see that you're passionate about it. Just to conclude, is Energy's ambition over the next five years?

Kunal: If I were to say it in a word as Tesla is for ev, energy should be for sustainable fuel. If I were to describe that, we would like to be the world's largest sustainable fuel company. We are already one of the largest biotin producers. We believe, as you see in our tagline, fueling a sustainable world.

We would like to repurpose all the waste available on planet into renewable fuel. In this podcast, we covered biogas bio pain, but We're also working on a lot of other things, which includes creating sustainable aviation fuel for the airline industry from organic waste, creating green methanol for the shipping industry from organic waste.

In one company we are trying to decarbonize cities, industries, the shipping industry and the transportation industry. So human mobility, cities and industries, decarbonization at scale.

Ben: Thanks for coming on the show, ku. It's pleasure having.

Kunal: Thank you.